Ladies, Fellows
I return from Philadelphia a very different person and with a lot more internet access. It's nice to get back on here and read and write. I really appreciated Jordan's last article because I thing it about sums up where I am right now. But all of this kind of got me to thinking, if I don't like this Sunday morning brand of worship, what would I want? So I have an assignment for each of you. Take some to time to contemplate what you think the ideal church would be like. Report back and share your thoughts with everyone.

Would the church meet regularly throughout the week? Would there be music? Would there be small groups? Would there be clergy? Would there be tithing? Just think about it and if you want some inspiration read some early church stuff from Acts to try and get a feel of what it was like for these believers living right after Jesus died with what I believe were the purest conceptions of church.

I look forward to hearing what you all have to say because we all bust on the church's faults but what do we see as a solution? Then maybe after this we can even talk about implementing some of our ideas. We'll see.

Peace,
Jason

Why I Stopped Going to Church

And Other Acts of Christian Disobedience

By Charles Moore

Going to church is a trap—a first-class web of deception. No, what follows is not a diatribe. I love the church too much to cut it to pieces. But shock treatment is sometimes necessary when one is stricken with a serious disorder. And when it comes to the way we do church today, nothing less than major deconstruction is needed.

Going to church is less an act and more a mentality. It is a way of thinking, a paradigm within which one approaches the Christian life itself. Within the “church system” is intertwined a web of interrelated practices: worship services, sermons, offerings, prayers, hymn singing, spiritual instruction and other religious undertakings, all occurring at a given time and in a place deemed holy or special apart from private life. Along with this package comes a clergy, those who are paid for performing religious services, and a laity, the rest of us who perform our religious duty by supporting those who keep the church running. Little of this has anything to do with being the church described in the New Testament.

Take away the pulpit and the pews, the audio-visual system, the pastor’s salary, the praise band, the bulletin, the tithes and offerings and Sunday school, and what is left of the modern church? Jesus told his critics that the temple would be destroyed, only to be raised up again. But was he thinking in terms of steeples and stadiums, or of a people in whom the Spirit dwells? If the Spirit gives birth to the church, and if genuine worship is “in spirit and in truth”(John 4:24), then where are the edifices, vestments, rituals, and hymnals on that first Pentecost? We won’t find any. Instead we read about fire, wind, power, food, joy, unanimity and sharing—in short, a communism of love (Acts 2 and 4).

When was the last time you went to church at an undesignated hour? If you had I bet you found the building empty (except, perhaps, for a secretary and janitor). Ah, you’re thinking, this is because believers aren’t supposed to be caged within the four walls of some sanctuary. Their task is to disperse themselves, and fulfill their various callings in society as salt and light.

True, life together in Christ extends far beyond the confines of stained glass windows. But this notion of dispersion is tricky. For with dispersion a general state of diffusion has crept in—a condition in which the “church” has lost its distinct identity as a community under the rulership of God.

This is why I stopped “going to church.” For the church is not an institution, or an event, and least of all a building. Rather it is distinguished by the kind of relationships its members have with one another. It’s not about suits and ties, or about sermons and singing, but about a radical realignment of relationships governed by Christ’s lordship. It is, in Bonhoeffer’s words, life together in Christ.

There is much talk today about an emergent church, one that is more authentic, relational, liquid, culturally relevant, organic and missional. This is a church that works for nonbelievers, where unnecessary barriers of traditional church are removed, via alternative worship gatherings, while at the same time integrating the spiritual in the warp and woof of everyday existence, by practicing the Divine Hours, for example. This is encouraging. But in too many cases, these postmodern alternatives confuse the symptom for the cause. The church is still conceived as another structure, albeit sacred, along side those of family, work, neighborhood, education, etc. The church is an add-on to real life in the world.

The biblical notion of church, the “ekklesia,” however, is far more radical. It is a community that is called out, called together and called forth—a community in which the presence of the risen Christ transforms existence itself. Church is the locus of Christ’s ongoing work of reconciliation and redemption, where people exhibit a new way of living together as an expression of their new life in Christ. Church is not about what gets proclaimed by a preacher or taught by an instructor. It’s not just songs, sacraments and ceremonies. The church is what gets lived out in daily life by a people who bind themselves together to live for God’s kingdom of unity, justice and peace.

Contrary to popular wisdom, the first words about the Christian life are not about what we as individuals can experience, but about the kind of society God intends. The gospel, or good news, is that in Christ, God’s coming kingdom is breaking into the here and now—in the depths of the believer’s heart, but also in the world itself. This kingdom encompasses economic, material, psychological, political, social and spiritual existence.

The gospel is not that there is still more to come in the future. It’s not about going to heaven when we die, or about being forgiven now and awaiting freedom later. It’s not about experiencing the sacred in the midst of the secular. Neither is it a new teaching or a new moral code. It is the promised “power of God for salvation” (Romans 1:16)—a power that frees us from all that opposes God and his will and all that alienates us from ourselves and each other. This power frees us to live according God’s original plan, where selfless sharing, justice, mutuality, respect, trust, forgiveness and joyful community become realized. As Norman Kraus puts it, “The gospel message is that promise is now becoming reality. The gospel message—new life—and the gospel medium—a new people—are simultaneously one.”

That’s why I stopped attending worship services, ceased tithing, and basically quit doing Sunday mornings (and also Wednesday nights). For what do I ultimately owe God? Everything, including my body (Romans 12:1). But how can I show this if I keep back what I perceive as mine, instead of seeing it as belonging to his body, the church? When am I to pay God homage? Always. But how is this possible if I wait for some “hour of power”—be it divine or otherwise—while much of my day is governed by priorities dictated by consumer values and competitive self-interest? Where am I to bow my will and talents to the one who is master of all? Wherever I am. But none of this makes much sense unless I surrender every area of my life to God’s new order. In short, how does the private life, with all its accoutrements of personal property, autonomous decision-making and self-betterment, coincide with the “more excellent way” of love to one’s brothers and sisters?

On the day of Pentecost the Spirit began something entirely new. The people who heard Peter that day were cut to the heart and exclaimed: “What shall we do to be saved?” Peter’s answer? “Repent and be baptized.” And with many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who embraced his message were baptized and joined the fellowship of Jesus’ disciples (Acts 2:37-41). What did all this mean? One thing is clear. Those being saved declared their allegiance to Christ by throwing in their lot with the original apostolic band. They didn’t just “receive Jesus into their hearts,” and then decide to attend worship services in Jerusalem. No, they declared and defined their allegiance to the Kingdom by joining themselves with God’s new society—with those whose lives were marked by an altogether different way of living where heart, soul, house and property were shared.

God’s goal for human history is a universal community under his love. Paul refers to this as “the reconciliation of all things” in Christ (Eph. 1:10). Going to church is a far cry from realizing such a cosmic plan. It may make us feel more religious and closer to God and to each other, or it may enable us to become more familiar with the Bible, but it fails to encompass the meaning and purpose of the church. Unless we find ways of building up a life together—daily, material, face-to-face life—that counters the spirit of this age, going to church, be it in a shopping mall or in a cathedral, is both a diversion and defection. It vivisects Christ, the head, from his body, the church, and relegates him to some realm entirely out of our orbit, thereby reducing his body to a few vital organs stripped of flesh and bone.

If Christ left his prerogative as God to become a human slave (Philip. 2:5-8), what are we going to let go of to become his body? We have a lot of changing to do if the world is ever going to see Christ in us. Much of this will depend on whether we become an answer to Jesus’ prayer for unity or not (John 17:21-23). This is the task of the church: to show the world, by the way we are as God’s people, that unhindered communion is possible in all things. It’s not just a question of believing it, but of doing it.

http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/What-Is-Church.htm

This post will serve both as clarification on my last post and food for thought.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian theologian from Germany who was martyred by the Nazis only days before the liberation. Here's what he had to say about our response ("We love because God first loved us") to God.

"And we cannot be honest unless we recognize that we have to live in the world etsi deus non daretur (as if God were absent). And this is just what we do recognize--before God! God himself compels us to recognize it. So our coming of age leads us to a true recognition of our situation before God. God would have us know that we must live as men who manage our lives without him. The God who is with us is the God who forsakes us (Mark 15:34). The God who lets us live in the world without the working hypothesis of God is the God before whom we stand continually. Before God and with God we live without God. God lets himself be pushed out of the world on to the cross. He is weak and powerless in the world, and that is precisely the way, the only way, in which he is with us and helps us. Matthew 8:17 makes it quite clear that Christ helps us, not by virtue of his omnipotence, but by virtue of his weakness and suffering."

Any thoughts?

Hello, all. My name is Jordan -- I'm good friends with Jason and attend LVC, as well. Jay and I talk a lot about stuff-religion and it's been pretty well established that I take radical positions and tease out implications. That's the way I operate-- by going to the extreme to see just how extreme extreme may seem. In any case, this first post of mine will make more sense as an adendum on to the one Jason posted below. So, you should read that first. I fully agree with what he said down there.

That having been said, here's my first post.



I’ve always had a huge problem with the saying, "let go and let God."

I think it's complete BS.

I also have a huge problem with saying that God is in control. God is most definitely not in control. This world is chaotic and senseless, beautiful and serious, ridiculous and terrifying, maddening, passionate, angering, lovingly brutally free. God is present in all things only as much as we allow God to be. It is true -- the divine spark is all around us. But we cover it up. God is not here. We’ve killed "him." We just think that God is here, on our side, making everything we do justified.

Because, since God is in control, everything must be good. Otherwise, why would God allow it to happen? Bullshit.

God is not here. We must live accordingly. We must live awaiting God's return. We must work to uncover the God-stuff we've covered with our cancerous overgrowth. We’ve made ourselves out to be huge -- we become huge when we allow ourselves to think that God is controlling it all and that we've got nothing to worry about.

Tell African mothers in the Congo that they've got nothing to worry about while their 3-year-old daughters are being gang-raped by militant revolutionaries. Tell the 24-year-old Latino janitor suffering from schizophrenia attempting to live on welfare and consequently being unable to afford medication that he has nothing to worry about.

"It’s all in God's hands" is bullshit. Was the Holocaust in God's hands?

We need to make ourselves small. We need to force our cancerous selves into remission. We need to realize that God is not on our side. God is not making all of our lives justified. We are a spreading cancer on this earth destroying everything in our wake. We perpetrate war merely by maintaining our cost of living. Because we enjoy wearing Abercrombie boxers, a Chinese child must suffer.

God does not justify our cancer.

It is up to us. Complacency is what allows injustice. God cannot work in this world without us. This is a twofold operation -- we must work to uncover God. In doing so, God will be allowed back into this world.

We are called to love – and love is anything but complacent.

Below is a quotation from a book by a guy named John L. Kater, Jr.

“The Bible assure us that God is less interested in servile obedience than in the freely given response of love (‘We love because God first loved us’) and that true obedience is directed towards the human family. The insight of the prophets as they probed more deeply into the heart of God was just that: worship means nothing apart from attention to the needs of the human community.

What are your endless sacrifices to me? Says the Lord. I am sick of holocausts of rams and the fat of calves. The blood of bulls and goats revolts me…I cannot endure festival and solemnity. Your New Moons and your pilgrimages I hate with all my soul. They lie heavy on me, I am tired of bearing them. …cease to do evil, learn to do good. Search for justice, help the oppressed, be just to the orphan, plead for the widow. – Isaiah 1:11-17

The prophet Micah summed up God’s demands in this way: ‘This is what God asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly, to walk humbly with your God.’ Obedience to God is expressed in our behavior towards others.” Kater 53-4.

This being the case, what is worship? What is 'church?'

Worship is being a bass player.

Recently my thoughts have been towards social justice and the fact that a faith in God, without the action to back it up is dead. If we claim to know and love God and yet that condition does not inspire us to serve those around us and love people more purely, then I cannot believe that we actually do know God. God is love, and to quote an old D.C. Talk classic "Love is a Verb" I'd like to thank Dictionary.com for the next part of the post, a definition of the word verb:

verb    n.
The part of speech that expresses existence, action, or occurrence in most languages.

I like this definition. It truly expresses what I'm trying to say here. Occurrence is just an existence of an action in time and space, and action could be said to be an occurrence of your existence in time and space. What I mean is that an action is just an expression of who you are. But these ideas of existence and action really sum up love very well. It's not just something you do but it's who you are. And it's not just who you are, it's also about what you are. I believe that everything we do is a reflection of who we are. Even if we're putting on a facade, it's easy for most people to see through these masks. So, I think we are lying to ourselves when we tell ourselves that we are something unless our actions line up with what we are saying because our actions are simply a reflection of our identity.

So, this has to do with love in the following way. God is love. If we believe God is in us and we are striving to be like God, or if we claim to know God or even claim to remotely be like him at all, then that dictates what our actions will be like. Our actions will be radically loving. You can not be something without acting like it.

So let's look at Jesus' love. His love was unconditional and extreme. It was also limitless. I read an excerpt from John Caputo's book, On Religion, and it was marvelous. One of his main points was that love, by its nature must be limitless. If you put a limit on love, then it's not love anymore. For example, if a woman asked her husband, "How much do you love me?" and he responded after many moments of thought, "well, up to a certain point, under certain conditions, to a certain extent," then I think many of us would doubt that man's love. See, love is without limit. That's what it is. There is no half version of love. There is no Love LE. No Love Version .5. Love is either Love version ∞, or it's not love at all. Also, God's love is universal in its scope. In other words, it loves everyone. God does not just love those who love him. Matthew 5:46-48 "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

I propose that the modern American church stinks at loving! We are to be the group of people who are centered around this Love that God is. However, often times we are reduced to (as a great quote that Jordan gave to me but I can't quite remember at the time or attribute to its originator) "idly gossiping about God." We may think that our praise and worship is the correct response to God's love, but it isn't. The correct response is to do as the Father does: love people. Without extravagant acts of love, our praise to God is just idle gossip. When I say the church stinks at loving, I speak of myself first. My love is neither limitless nor universal. I love only those who love me for the most part. That is all. I think I'm being a good friend to those around me but often times it's only because they're being a good friend to me. The moment someone betrays my trust or turns on me I take their fault as permission to lay their necks on the public chopping block of gossip. My love is also limited. I'll give a bum a dollar, or help a friend if it fits in my schedule, but my love for others has bounds. So, really I don't think I've truly discovered God yet. I've tasted God's scent in the air. I've felt God's presence as one would when they know some unseen person is in the room, but I haven't seen God, heard God, and certainly haven't been anything like God if I can't love those around me.

So we (the church, myself first) are failing at the action part. But we succeed at the identity part. I claim to be a christian all of the time. I call myself a son of God. I focus on how Jesus' death gets me into heaven. I sing endless songs about how God loves me and I love him in return. Oh, yes. I'm all about being a christian. We are all about being the church. But are we all about "doing the church?" (doing the things that would truly make us followers of Christ) Are we about the action of our existence? Can we be something if we don't act like it, because I see a contradiction in who we claim to be and who we act like.

Let me address this focus problem a little more. I think we (the church, myself first) focus a little to much on our identity and not enough on acting out our identity. And here's the real perplexing thing, you don't have to claim your identity to be something. If I tell you that I am a bass player, does that make me any more or less of a bass player? No. My identity as a bass player does not come from me claiming that. What does make me a bass player? Playing the bass. If you saw me playing the bass you would have no doubt in your mind that I was a bass player because I was playing the bass. (I know this seems obvious but it's all for example purposes) So, does claiming that I am a Christian make me any more or less of a Christian? Does singing songs about how much God loves me and how he died so that I can go to heaven every single Sunday make me any more or less of a Christian? No. My identity as a Christian is not wrapped up in me claiming my identity. I believe that if you never mentioned that you were going to heaven again, you could still go to heaven. God's grace and your salvation do not hang on you mentioning that fact. How do people know that I am a Christian then? They will see me loving people. "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love . They will know we are Christians by our love" Most of us have sung that. And I'm not talking about being friendly when I say love. As I stated in an above paragraph, love isn't loving those who love us. Love is extravagant! Love is life-threatening and dangerous! Love is unreserved, limitless, and universal. I'm not implying that we are never vocal in our thanks to the Father for his love, but consider this: What better way is there to give thanks for God's love than applying it to our own actions and making God a proud father? I believe that actions speak more truthfully of our heart than words.

So what can we do to remedy this focus problem? Well, obviously, loving people extravagantly is the first step. However, allow me to propose something that may aid in getting there. Apply characteristics normally attributed to Jesus, to your own love. Allow me too explain. If I were to mention the grace of God, most people would assume that I'm referring to how Jesus could die for a sinful wretch like me. How selfish of us to consider only the implications of God's grace on our own salvation without realizing that the grace of God is also an expectation on us to reflect that grace in our own lives, whether that means supporting someone who may not be as wealthy as us, supporting welfare politically, working to eradicate world poverty, or turning the other cheek in numerous other tangible ways. But that seems to be what we do. We talk about God's amazing love and immediately apply it to ourselves. Most of us (myself included and listed first amongst the guilty party) quickly forget that God's amazing love is a mandate for us to love those around us just as amazingly in tangible sacrificial ways. So the next time you're in a worship service, forget about yourself for a little bit and realize that it's about loving God. And how do we love God? As Matthew 22:36-39 says, we love God by loving others. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. If you sing about God's mercy, think about how God's love for others would be merciful and how you can act that out. If you sing about how Jesus would die for anyone, follow through with the implication that if we were living in God's love, we would be willing to die for anyone, and think about how you can act that out. It brings new life to Sunday morning worship. Worship changes from a big "Yay, I'm saved!" fest (excuse my bitter nomenclature) to a session that will challenge you into walking out your identity in loving actions. And I believe that is the true heart of Christ.

Opportunities to love others are all around us if we look hard enough. I find that most of mine are hiding right behind my ego and self-image, so it normally takes tearing that down to find one. So keep your eyes open and when in doubt just do something loving for someone. I can't imagine any of us disappointing the Father because we loved the wrong person or loved in too many instances. That's absurd! Go out there and be the lovers Jesus' life and our identity calls us to be.

Friends,

I would like to thank you guys for your discussions and posts thus far but would like to encourage you to continue to post anytime you feel led. I would also like to draw your attention to the obvious visual upgrade of the Fellowship. Blogger had some new templates and features they launched on Mother's day so I slapped a new look on and enabled comments. All new posts will have the ability for anyone to comment on them and for you all to view the comments that way we can have some discussion in anyone posts anything thought provoking.

I would also like to welcome some new members. These are all dear friends from LVC who I believe will add to the disussion and I think they are all in the same areas of growth and thought that we are in. So feel free to post, challenge things, ask questions, whatever.

So I got the new Relevant magazine in the mail today and I was flipping through it and something really upset me in it (I guess most of my posts start by me being upset). So it's an advertisement (pg 041) selling the Message Remix. It has a picture of Third Day sitting together and Mac and one of the guitarists are holding bibles and they are "discussing" the bible with the other band-mates. It is very obviously a staged picture. You can tell they aren't actually discussing the bible. It's just a photoshoot right. Then below that it says "read.think.pray.live" I assume that's the name of the company or just a slogan (you can also check out readthinkpraylive.com). Beside that is a picture of the afforementioned bible. Then below the slogan it says "The Bible isn't like ordinary books. It isn't a book you read once, put on a shelf, and never look at again. There's so much more to it. Hang on to these words for dear life. think about them, talk about them with your friends. Renew you sense of "wow." below that is says "Think Psalm 119:49, the message (full Bible).

So I was ok with that all so far I guess. I mean it's all so incredibly fake with the staged picture and all but still, they need to sell bibles right, that's how they make money. However, below that is printed "Look for Third Day's new studio release in stores May 4th."

I couldn't believe that! Here's what Im getting at:

John 2:13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

It is my opinion that we have faith too easy. I think faith should be something we have to search for, work for, meditate on to discover, walk through to gain understanding from. So, if a bible needs to be marketed to you, I would seriously doubt your desire for the truth you could attain from it. Now, I realize that the company needs to sell books but still, this just seems rediculous. Inside the newest Newsboys album it has a little card advertising the message as the official bible of the Newsboys! That's rediculous. No one can make a teenager want God. I don't think it's our call to make people want God. How about love them until they realize that they already do and have always wanted God. Then they'll look for a bible cause they'll want it. So maybe the advertisement is for people who are already christians. I still think the same thing applies. Advertise your bible, sure. But if your bible really has a cool new take on the truth, those who are in tune with the truth will search it out. It's jsut our stupid commerciallism. It ticks me off. ok.

Let me know what you guys think. Should bibles be marketed to people? Is this too far?

So,

I played at this church this weekend and quite frankly it pissed me off. This alone is of great encouragement to me. The constant question within me is "Have I lost my Waco and completely abandoned the God of the bible in exchange for some whacked religion based on things other than truth?" I constantly think I've backslidden because I swear now quite regularly, I smoke pipes and cigars, I drink alcohol and enjoy it, and I'm bugged by most church services. As for the smoking, swearing, and drinking, that's a whole other argument that I feel has been discussed by us all numerous times. However, the being bugged by conservative Christianity thing is really getting to me. I hate walking out of a church service feeling the turmoil of contradiction. On one hand, these are my brothers and sisters. These are the people who claim to be in love with the same God that I am in love with. On the other hand, I often feel deeply insulted, judged, offended, and angered when leaving a church.

So, since I have limited power to change the world around me I continue to attempt to make the best out of things. I have decided/realized that this anger/pain is a great care for the church. That's really what I feel I'm tapping into. This bride, no matter what state she's in (that's not even for me to decide except as an equal, self-critical, part of said bride) is the love of Christ. When I feel we are missing out on God's truth I weep. And when I feel we are touching on God's truth I rejoice extremely. So perhaps this nearly seemingly heretical attribute of mine is perhaps a care and longing for a perfect bride. So that thought brought some encouragement to me as I go through all of this crap.

Now, my response to these feelings is a mystery unknown even to me. What do I do about these things. Jen, my girlfriend (not a Christian), felt deeply offended when she sat through these services with me on Sunday, and not in a offended by the gospel kind of way. She felt major "holier-than-thou" tones in the whole sermon. She was told that Christians should insulate themselves from people in the world (her) and other such nonsense. I was very saddened. Here's a church that wishes they could reach out to a person like Jen; they probably even state that at some point in time in a mission statement, but they can't even worship the God of love and kindness without insulting her and deeply offending her. Something doesn't make sense there. So what do I do about it? I don't know. Should I refuse to play in places like that. Not that I'm better than that or anything. I have the right to choose where I spend my time and I believe that my time is very special and valuable (that's why I choose to give it to cool friends like you'all). I want to spend my time in the most glorifying way possible. Is feeding the machine the right thing? That's just one suggested thing to do but the point is that I have no idea what to do with these feelings except to try to live out my convictions as best I can here in my life at school. Is that enough? Will that help change the church into the bride she's supposed to be? I don't know.

So I retire to bed frustrated and clueless about this. Any thoughts?

-Jason

hey guys- jen again.

so, i guess the proverbial shit hath hiteth the fan with many of my friends.. And it all seemed to smack me in the face tonight (the shit that is). Well i just got to thinking- the 'red tape' and covenants etc that we put up- they are good- intended for good, but i am just having a hard time seeing the 'justice' or 'rightness' in nit-picking to hurt someone this bad! Is it really worth it- if upholding these ideals and such is so important... i don't know.. Is it more important that grace, and true love for people? i am really struggling with this right now. ..Sigh. i wrote a big poem about those insensitive and naive to those who are really hurting... But i doubt that much sarcasm should be allowed in one post.

.. My roommate doesn't like when i swear- even if i used it to get out the true cry of my heart in some poetry. Then again- she doesn't like to hear about my friends with problems- would rather focus on her new 'daises and roses' relationship.... i didn't think it was- but i guess the poem i wrote was even about her too. (i KNOW i am guilty also, i know this without a doubt.) it is just so sad. What is so hard about genuine care and love? Sigh. Don't you hate it when all you can do is listen and pray- and it leaves you feeling so helpless?

here. Listening, and praying. and o- so helpless,

jen